Dem debate open thread

The "Philly style" Clinton-Obama duel -- "cheesesteaks at ten paces," as commenter JD suggested -- begins at 8:00 PM. I don't know how much liveblogging I'll be doing, but y'all can feel free to leave your own running commentaries in comments here.

Live video stream here.

UPDATE: Obama isn't exactly hitting these initial questions about Bittergate out of the park. He could (and should) have had a clearer explanation of his remarks prepared, and he's missing some chances to take sharper shots at Hillary.

Then again, Hillary is rambling pretty badly now.

Here is Josh Marshall's liveblog.

UPDATE 2: Hillary can't seem to decide if she's really going for the jugular or not, so she's sort of talking around herself. Ramble, ramble, ramble.

Meanwhile, Andrew Sullivan notes: "So far, neither Gibson nor Stephanopoulos have asked a single policy-related question. They seem utterly uninterested in foreign or domestic policy. After the past eight years, we have had half an hour with nothing but process questions. Gibson and Stephanopoulos are clearly part of the problem in this election and part of what has to be reformed."

UPDATE 3: The undecided voters whose reactions are being charted on the WPVI stream hated Hillary's horrible Bosnia answer, and loved Obama's response that we need to stop obsessing over gaffes.

UPDATE 4: Sullivan again: "Now, it's flag-pins! I'm just pointing out that we are now almost halfway through this debate and ABC News has not asked a single policy question. It's pure Rove, sustained and hyped and sustained by Stephanopoulos and Gibson. It's what they know; it's easy; and it will generate ratings. It is not journalism." And later: "I have to say I am actually shocked at the appallingly poor quality of the questions: the worst of the campaign so far. Pure MSM process bulls**t."

I'm actually not entirely sure I agree. They've debated policy in 25 debates, and we already know they disagree on virtually nothing. The "pure MSM process bulls**t" is really the only thing we haven't heard them talk about face-to-face ad infinitum.

Then again, in light of my recent stance on "gotcha" tactics, I suppose I should be on Sullivan's side on this one. I dunno. I can see both sides of it.

UPDATE 4 1/2: Upon further reflection, I'll say this. It does make some degree of sense to talk about the "process bulls**t" in the sense that it's new, whereas the policy questions aren't. However, the policy questions are vastly more important; they elevate the debate, whereas the process questions degrade it. The policy questions inform voters, whereas the process questions distract them. A responsible journalist, committed to fulfilling the press's unique role as a crucial element of our democracy, would spend less time thinking of obvious gotcha potshot questions, and more time thinking of new, different, and more informative and educational ways to ask important questions. This debate, however, was not an exercise in responsible journalism. It was, as The Huffington Post says, "the gotcha debate."

UPDATE 5: Did Obama just lose Florida with his rambling, evasive answer on Israel and Iran -- followed by Hillary's straightforward "massive retaliation" answer?

Substantively: he'll make a rock-solid promise to withdraw from Iraq by a date certain, but he won't promise anything more than "appropriate action" in the event of Iranian nuclear attack on Israel? Bleh.

To be clear, I'm not sure an ironclad pledge by a presidential candidate is appropriate in either instance. But if I was going to promise one and not the other, I'm pretty sure I'd make the opposite choice from the one Obama made.

UPDATE 6: This is funny. All the liberal bloggers think these moderators are terrible. Meanwhile, over at National Review: "These are the GREATEST DEBATE QUESTIONS EVER."

It's easy to see why. This debate has been a veritable gold mine of sound bites that John McCain will use to great effect, whoever wins the nomination.

UPDATE 7: I think both of these candidates are tired. They're both terrible tonight.

FINAL UPDATE: I totally checked out on the end of the debate: I stopped watching as the affirmative action question was being asked. Did I miss anything good?

Comments

[Condor]

ABC is not livestreaming the debate!?! Now I know what the B.C. stands for. What, do we live in ancient Egypt or something?

[Marty West]

Charles Gibson should have read up on Philadelphia...

It's the Kimmel Center not Kimmel Theater.

It's the National Constitution Center not National Constitutional Center.

Ugh.

He also control ALLLLL THE TIMEEEEEEEE!!!!

[Condor]

6 minutes, commercial break. WTF?!

[Condor]

By the way, it's online here:
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/livemedia?section=news/politics&id=6083174

[Marty West]

What kind of question is that?!?! Take the other as a running mate?

[Brendan Loy]

I'm the granddaughter of a factory worker!!

LOL.

[Condor]

I know two "noes" mean a yes. But now I just learned that three yeses mean a no.
Question: "Can Obama win in November"
Hillary: "Yes, yes, yes."

[Condor]

Wow. That was a horrible answer by hillary on Bosnia. It got the lowest polling by the undecided voters so far.

[Marty West]

Hilldogs new campaign song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x28jaeyX2s

[Condor]

Tehehe. Nice.

[Marty West]

Is Stephen Colbert writing these questions? "Does Rev. Wright love America?"

WHAT??!

How about questions on POLICY?!?!

[Condor]

Ball out of the park on that weather underground question.

[Condor]

Zinger by Hillary on how the Republicans shouldn't run anyone in this election in apology for the Bush Cheney years.

Yeah... a zinger... if only we had a one-party state, so people didn't have a choice in the election!! And then Hillary could get "elected" the same way Saddam Hussein got "elected," by government-mandated acclamation!! HOORAY!!! I'm sorry, maybe I'm being too literal, but that comment actually really bothered me.

[Braylon]

Zinger by Hillary on how the Republicans shouldn't run anyone in this election in apology for the Bush Cheney years

Ahh, the Dems would STILL find a way to fuck it up and lose.

[Condor]

Haha. Good point.

[Becky]

Ugh. Our moral authority in the world? Bleh.

[Condor]

Krike. Das Volk really liked Hillary's Iraq answer.

[Condor]

Stumble for Obama on taxes.

[Condor]

Unbelievable segue from Virginia Tech masacre to a question on guns. Are you kidding me?

[Youngblai]

RE: Iran. I'm with you Brendan--a blanket guarantee is _not_ the way to go. Then we're just looking silly if Iran says, "Fine, we'll just nuke (insert friendly nation here) and let the resultant instability do the rest...".

The Israelis have nukes, and they have the Sampson option. If it gets to the point that Iran's chucking one into Tel Aviv, we'd just be bouncing rubble anyway.

[Condor]

Wait a second, did Obama, a professor of con. law, just claim ignorance on the legal status of guns? I think he said "I haven't read all the briefs." ?

[Condor]

Christ almighty, I'm afraid Hillary's won this one. Obama was uninspired, and Hillary rose to the occasion with her back up against the wall.

[eagleye]

Am I correct in hearing Hillary say twice that she made statements about Tuzla that she "knew not to be true?"

I can't wait to review the video. I'm pretty sure that she essentially confessed to lying, twice....

[Condor]

The moderators were totally negligent on Tuzla. After pressing both candidates on every issue tonight, they didn't properly follow-up on that one at all.

[Condor]

I was kind of zoned out, but did someone in the crowd just talk shit to one of the moderators as they cut away?

[Condor]

Live on ABC, governor Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania just said that ABC did a horrible job with "gotcha" questions.
"What are we doing as a country here," Rendell asks ABC.

[Mad Max, Esquire]

I didn't watch any of it. It sounds like I didn't miss anything.

[Condor]

ABC's website is being flooded with hundreds (thousands?) of comments objecting to the moderation of this debate:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/DemocraticDebate/comments?type=story&id=4666956

[Clocky]

It's 3AM - are you seriously going to put a democrat in the white house ?

[Condor]

WTF!?! An ABC reporter just interviewed someone who talked about how people were disappointed that the first 45 minutes didn't focus on the issues. The reporter responded, "They can always look at their websites for that."

[Max Thrax]

An insight into the MSM mind, ladies and gentlemen, these elections aren't to solve problems or further democracy, it's all for the amusement of pundits!

"I actually happen to know people who need government and so they would care more about the programs, and less about the things we kind of make fun of…But as sport, and as our enterprise, Gore coming up with another whopper is greatly entertaining to us. And we can disprove it in a way we can’t disprove these other things."
- Margaret Carlson

[Paul Petschek]

You've got to be kidding me? This was the worst excuse for a debate I've ever seen.

One of the questioners used to work for the Clinton administration. How's that for conflict of interest?

The first 45 minutes were spent on gotcha questions, mostly towards Senator Obama. I mean, what is this supposed to be, an interrogation or a debate? Then they'd turn to Senator Clinton, as if in the interest of a perverse form of fairplay and ask her if she'd like to hit him a little bit more. Guess what, she obliged.

This was the worst debate format I have ever seen, like something out of the movie "Idiocracy". Perhaps next time we should just put the frontrunner out in the middle of the arena with lions and Humvees and see how many beers or shots he can drink without getting mauled to death.

ABC should be ashamed. The FCC should investigate and issue penalties. They have their license only on the provision that they serve the public. We have been ill-served.

[Tom Johnson]

I am boycotting Disneyland and urging all my friends and family to do the same thing. And I am calling my cable company tomorrow to have them block ABC. I'm done with them!

[roberto]

Josh Marshall makes an interesting observation which is that even the more serious policy related questions seemed to presuppose the correctness of the Republican/right wing position on the given issue.

This made even the so-called substantive half of the program seem to be of the gotcha variety.

[Samantha]

''Wait a second, did Obama, a professor of con. law, just claim ignorance on the legal status of guns? I think he said "I haven't read all the briefs." ?''

Tell me where/when/how he'd get a chance to read the briefs from a case that's not his when he's campaigning for president. Jeez. Are you implying he should be affiliated with the lawyers who argue the case? His home firm is in Chicago, not D.C.

He answered the question well.

[John B.]

Visiting from Sullivan . . .
Condor's quoting above of the exchange between the viewer and the reporter just underscored something I felt while being annoyed by yet another cut to a commercial break: that, between the commercials and the tape-delaying for West Coast audiences, ABC marketed this debate as entertainment (read: as something to make money from) and not as a public service. Earlier this morning I was thinking, "Jerry Springer disguised as politics" . . . that's a bit unfair, but my larger point is this: independent of one's political leanings, all of us should be dismayed by and angry with last night's "debate." Even the excuse of some that "that's what we get with a prolonged primary season" does not cut ice here.

[anna]

I heard of a poll on either CnNN or MSNBC this morning which overwhelmingly declared Obama as the winner of the debate. I've heard no one mention the likability issue - Hillary came off as a phony, studied actress.

[anna]

I heard of a poll on either CnNN or MSNBC this morning which overwhelmingly declared Obama as the winner of the debate. I've heard no one mention the likability issue - Hillary came off as a phony, studied actress.

[Angrier and Angrier]

Sounds to me like ABC did Obama a huge favor. ABC has become the focus of the fall-out over this debate, not Obama. Could this give Obama a boost in the sympathy vote?

[Joe Mama]

It will be my pleasure not to vote for either of these two in November.

[Angrier and Angrier]

Joe Mama-

Like you would vote for any Democrat?

[Condor]

It will be my pleasure to vote for a candidate that Joe Mama isn't voting for this November.

[Joe Mama]

Truth be told, I've voted for Democrats numerous times, just not on a national ticket (I don't count my cross-over vote for Obama in the VA primary, which I'm becoming increasingly embarrased about). I know, I know . . . who expects A&A to know what he's talking about?

Now back to squeezing off a few rounds because I'm feeling bitter, because that's that's what I've been told I feel by the likely Democrat nominee . . .

[Sandy Underpants]

Here's a poll: Does anyone actually believe Joe Mama voted in the democratic primary this year?

This debate was more like a Saturday Night Live skit. "Sen. Obama, you are closely tied with the American terrorist, William Ayres, doesn't that make you unelectable?". Don't mention that William Ayers is such a dangerous terrorist that he's never been convicted of a crime or served time in prison and teaches as a professor at the University of Illinois. Aren't these questions suppose to be able to be answered by either candidate since they are debating to be elected the nominee for president?

[Joe Mama]

sandy,

I seriously doubt a single person here cares what you believe. I certainly don't. But FWIW, not only did I vote for Obama in the VA primary, I said repeatedly that I would, and for reasons that made perfect sense to anyone with my political leanings. I suspect the number of people who would respond to your asinine poll in the affirmative is significantly higher than the number of people who actually care what you believe.

[Sandy Underpants]

I admit that I don't give you much respect for anything, which is why I am so surprised to have thought you had more integrity than to vote in the democratic primary.

I stand corrected.

[Joe Mama]

I am so surprised to have thought you had more integrity than to vote in the democratic primary.

I am so surprised you had a thought, period.

[Angrier and Angrier]

Joe Mama-

The most recent polls from PA show Obama and Hillary back in a dead heat. Guess you don't know as much about those bitter gun-owning Pennsylvanians as you thought.

[Joe Mama]

Well, as some clown said the other day, it doesn't matter what I or the polls say, it's the votes.

[Condor]

You guys should just make out. It's obvious.

[Joe Mama]

The most recent polls from PA show Obama and Hillary back in a dead heat.

Really? The RealClearPolitics average has Clinton at +6, which includes 8 different polls, 7 of which have Clinton ahead anywhere between 1 and 14 pts. Not quite a "dead heat."

Moreover, while Zogby's poll released today is entitled "Deadlocked in Pennsylvania!", the data shows Clinton ahead by a wide margin in Western PA, and ahead by 8 pts in the central part of the state (i.e., she's ahead among the non-Philly voters who would be most turned off by Obama's gaffe).

But you're the one who understands rural PA, A&A . . .

[Angrier and Angrier]

I don't understand rural PA. I understand that just because you own a gun and work a blue collar job doesn't mean you're an idiot.

[Joe Mama]

Well, you candidate understands it to mean you're "economically frustrated" . . . when in reality it's not the blue collar folks who are fixated on cultural issues, but the affluent, college-educated people living in cities and suburbs who are most exercised by guns and religion. "In contemporary American politics, social issues are the opiate of the elites."

[Angrier and Angrier]

From the Zogby poll...

Pennsylvanians by a two to one margin (60% to 29%) are more likely to agree with supporters of Obama that voters in Pennsylvania are bitter about their economic situation than with Clinton and critics of Obama that he is an elitist who does not understand working people.

[Angrier and Angrier]

Joe Mama-

Nice pull. You contradict yourself with two posts in the span of 20 minutes. Nice lawyering.

[Joe Mama]

Do tell.