Debate open thread

I don't know if I'll be doing much liveblogging of the Clinton-Obama debate (live now on CNN), but if you're watching, feel free to leave your comments here.

UPDATE: I thought Obama pretty clearly won that debate -- not just in the sense that Hillary didn't score a knockout punch, so Obama "wins" by default, but in the sense that he won the debate outright. Of course, I'm biased. But I thought Obama wiped the floor with Hillary during the middle part of the debate, where they were talking about the plagiarism question, the actions vs. words issue, and the general tone of the campaign, followed by the experience/judgment question. I thought that was the heart of the debate, and the part that'll be replayed and analyzed endlessly tomorrow -- and he looked great while she looked awful.

P.S. Caveat: I wasn't really paying attention to Hillary's closing statement, which everybody is saying was great.

P.P.S. You know that article I linked about how Hillary's camp was divided on whether to go negative or stay positive? Thinking about that debate and watching the highlights on CNN, it occurs to me that it seems like Hillary never really decided which course to take.

She took a couple of pretty sharp swipes at Obama (the disastrous "Xerox" comment and the reference to his supporter who couldn't name a single accomplishment), but she seemed to be attacking only reluctantly, and she didn't stay on the offensive. And then came the moment at the end where she said she was "honored" be on stage with Obama -- a man she had just gotten through basically calling a dirty rotten plagiarist who isn't ready for prime time, is all talk and no action, and has never accomplished anything. Huh? Either go negative or stay positive, but don't try to do both at once. That really doesn't work.

ANOTHER UPDATE: Transcript here. One of my favorite Obama lines was in response to his supposed focus on style over substance:

These are very specific, concrete, detailed proposals, many of them which I've been working on for years now.  Senator Clinton has a fine record. So do I.  And I'm happy to have a debate on the issues, but what we shouldn't be spending time doing is tearing each other down.  We should be spending time lifting the country up.

This was good too, of course.

Comments

[Condor]

Shit. Obama clearly has a cold.

[Mad Max, Esquire]

Hillary was having throat problems as well.

[Mad Max, Esquire]

Opening Statement goes to Obama.

[Condor]

THIS JUST IN: CONDOR DECLARES OBAMA WINNER OF TEXAS DEBATE

[Mad Max, Esquire]

Steady Condor. Steady.

[Mad Max, Esquire]

Hillary is getting into the weeds. She is trying to disagree and agree with Obama at the same time.

[Mad Max, Esquire]

Cuba - A draw with a slight edge for Obama, mostly because Hillary couldn't give a concise answer.

[Mad Max, Esquire]

Hillary is proposing a "trade time-out." WTF???? How do you do THAT? That should help the economy, stopping trade. What a NUT!

[Condor]

This debate is bizarre. Both candidates are playing it safe and not criticizing the other. Someone has the wrong strategy, I don't know who, but they can't both play it conservative.

[Mad Max, Esquire]

Economy - Score one for Hillary. She basically promised to spend more than Obama without figuring out a way to pay for it.

[Mad Max, Esquire]

Hillary has the wrong strategy. She needs to land a blow or two. Obama just needs to stay the course.

[Mad Max, Esquire]

I see where Hillary is going with this. She is playing the "emotion" card. She keeps throwing emotionally charged analogies out there, trying to offset Obama's more intellectual approach. I think she is trying to draw back women and Hispanics by seeming more compassionate.

[Condor]

If I were a four-year old, I might like the fact that Hillary talks really slowly and enunciates every word. But since I'm not a four-year old, I don't.

[Becky]

Hillary needs to learn to speak instead of screaming. It would save her voice and she'd sound far less strident.

[Condor]

I think Obama's cold makes him sound more academic. Weird.

[Condor]

Homerun Obama on the experience question: every major newspaper in the state of Texas is not delusional, and they've all endorsed me.

[Condor]

Obama pre-empted Clinton on the plagiarism charge, and when she charged it, it fell totally short and she got booed. Obama's taking over.

[Jim]

I wish they'd just let them go at over healthcare for the whole time.

[Jim]

s/at/at it/

[Becky]

This is the first debate I've watched where Hillary has looked so bad. She tanked on the plagiarism thing.

[Condor]

The NYTimes blog said "Mrs. Clinton has the line of the night so far: “If it’s about words, they should be your own words. It’s not change you can believe in, it’s change you can Xerox.”"

They failed to mention that she got booed shortly after.

It didn't really matter, though. This fact was pointed out by like a hundred posters on the blog in five minutes.

[jalypso]

The woman is a terrible moderator!God!!!
She can'T keep time and every time OlD
bama finish they go to break!!!This is
crazy!!!!Debate is unfair to Clinton.

Hillary is in Bush territory !!!!

[jalypso]

OLd alabama House Negro telling what
master wants out us slaves!

[Condor]

Hillary just pulled off a kind of "I feel your pain" moment.

[Condor]

Wow. That was a pretty good ending for Hillary.

[jalypso]

I like obama but the stakes are to
high to put all my chips on a rookie!!

[Condor]

I consider that last Hillary speech to be her concession.

That all they did was stirred up mess
when they ask Obama a Question.When they
ask Hillary a question it was a hard time
consuming question.Just about right to.Some
people
only way to win is to cheat and tell people
what to think after the debate.!
Obama is a white republican with brown skin!

[jalypso]

The republican fear Clinton !!!

[jalypso]

Well we always tell kid about bad choices!
8years now maybe 12years of if we don't
use good reasoning. weak minded!!

[Condor]

Random question: Is anyone else unable to consciously distinguish Kristof and Kristol when opening a nytimes op-ed link? I'm confused as hell every single time because I have no idea why Kristof is writing about Reagan or Krystol is writing about Kenya.
One damn horizontal bar in one name just can't cover that much political distance!

[jalypso]

Maybe if you stop drinking all that kristol
you will function better bro.

[Condor]

Hey man, it's addictive. It's like Kristol meth.

[jalypso]

Brendan you attract large crowds even
A.A. sit and tell people!!!

[thebeef]

"I thought Obama wiped the floor with Hillary during the middle part of the debate, where they were talking about the plagiarism question, the actions vs. words issue, and the general tone of the campaign, followed by the experience/judgment question."

Okay...so Obama won the debate where they talked about 1) the plagiarism quesion, an issue that is complete lunacy, which only the press is running with because they love to dumb this campaign down to the level of a student government election; 2) the actions vs. words issue, which is also mere fluff, as it affords Obama more opportunity to talk without talking about policy; and 3)the general tone of the campaign, which again, has nothing to do with policy.

So, in short, Obama won the part of the debate that revolved around the general issue of: bull shit. Which, apparently, was the "heart of the debate."

Well, I guess life immitates the Onion once again.

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/poll_bullshit_is_most_important

[Mad Max, Esquire]

I think Obama won the night, but not by a knock-out or a TKO. Hillary's only stellar moment was the ending. However, I don't believe the people were giving Hillary a standing ovation for her comment. Based on Obama's gestures to the moderator, I think the audience was given a cue that the debate was over and they were standing to applaud both candidates, not what Hillary said at the end. It would be interesting to see if what I observed was, indeed, the case.

[4-7]

Debate observations made before I started watching Lost on Tivo (at 9:20 so I can skip commercials and finish cleanly at 10:00).

Hillary is a complete snake and anyone who cannot look into that woman's eyes and see a complete snake of a human being has a severe problem of discretion. This woman scares me. I can see her being a dictator.

Obama. I love this man. I don't know much about him. He's a politician so it could all be an act. But, man, going by the presentation he is a beautiful person. It's too bad he's a liberal and I don't find anything American about his pie-sky ideas. (That's not an offense against hope, it's an indictment of flighty kum-bay-uh, pretend our policies don't steal money from free people and break the economy policies).

Hillary II. She goes to George Bush talk whenever she's losing a question.

Please, please, please everyone. Don't believe the Lee Harvey explanation when Obama is taken out of this campaign. It was Hillary. This woman will not lose her chance at the presidency. If she does not have a way to take Obama down with politicking, she will find another way. I don't want credit for calling it, I want to prevent it or prevent the fall out. If she orchestrated this Machiavellian sweep, she would reap a whirlwind of power and direct it against the innocent right wing that it is blamed against. That's me and my ilk.

She's either a Machiavellian snake or she isn't. If I'm wrong, then good. But if I'm right, let's not believe the cover story, please ?

[David K.]

Gotta love when Andrew and theBeef start attacking Obama this early, it means they are really REALLY afraid

[thebeef]

And by that logic, David, Obama must be really REALLY afraid of McCain...or did you miss his attack on McCain tonight?

[citizen]

i for one welcome our new president obama overlord.

[jalypso]

4-7 I love this man.I don't know much about
him. You will when the Replublican finish
with him you will think Bush was re elected!!!Mark my words!!You got to
go all out against the republicans because
thats all they understand. Only Hillary
can do this because she is a veteran who
know how to put it all together!

[Condor]

I'm curious if anyone's ever written about this. McCain can't raise his hands above his shoulders on account of the torture he received in Vietnam. And everytime he's out on the campaign trail and waving at folks, it's a constant reminder of his torture. At least it is to me. He might as well be in a wheelchair or something, since on the political trail, he's always got this outward sign of torture. Of course, McCain can't help this, but it's kind of like waving or giving the thumbs up is to McCain as the 9/11 reference is to Giuliani. Do other people think this?

[jalypso]

That not what Barbara B. told me.She said
Mccain reached for her cookie and she
broke his arm!!!

[gahrie]

Someone remind me:

Just what has Obama accomplished?

Ever?

[jalypso]

Im happy you are now a lawyer Brendan maybe
one day you will be a judge.Good job most noble one.

[4-7]

Mao, Josef, Fidel le Cas,
name me a country where they haven't starv'd
Liberals promise E-QUAL-IT-TEE
and deliver bankruptcy for all for free.

No toil, struggle, or responsible plan
need precede the toppl'ng of Capitalist Dan.
Down comes the towers of profit and risk
together we sit, eating dirt, wearing leafs.

Brother and sister, moot creation's dignity
What matters most is that we're equal not free.
Cap the rich, make it easy, charge only goods luxury
We're entitled to happiness to a certain degree.

[4-7]

PS - when Obama said we can't build a wall at the border I shouted, "YES WE CAN"

[Condor]

Great 4-7, why don't you just go down there and build the entire wall? Start on the Mexico side, and don't stop until you're totally finished.

[DC]

Many were saying that Hillary sounded like she was almost conceding at the end, or at least preparing her supporters for that. Somehow, it felt like she lost that edge, but it's tough to think that she's going to give up before it's completely over.

[Brendan Loy]

the actions vs. words issue, which is also mere fluff...

The "actions vs. words issue" is the centerpiece of Hillary's message. It's her central stated rationale for why people should vote for her instead of Obama -- he's all about words and speeches, she's the experienced one who knows how to get things done. I don't know how you can dismiss his effective rebuttal of her campaign's central message as "mere fluff."

...as it affords Obama more opportunity to talk without talking about policy

Obama talked PLENTY about policy last night, and has done so throughout the campaign. Heck, he got criticized Tuesday night for giving a victory speech that was too long because he was talking so much about substance and policy. He also has, of course, detailed policy positions on his website and elsewhere, available for anyone to see, anytime they want. He is a very thoughtful person who has very well-defined positions on the issues. You might not agree with those positions (I don't agree with a bunch of them), but that doesn't justify implying that he's an empty suit.

This notion that Obama never talks about substance is a classic Big Lie. It's just absolutely false, but it gets repeated so often that people think it's true.

[4-7]

Haha Condor. I think you've just come up with the plot for Prison Break Season 4

[Mad Max, Esquire]

"Someone remind me:

Just what has Obama accomplished?

Ever?"

Infinitely more than gahrie.

[4-7]

As the official paranoid pre-conspiracy theorizor of Obama's doom, I don't yet know who to interpret this story. And Dallas to boot !

http://www.star-telegram.com/667/story/486413.html

[Joe Mama]

I'm curious if anyone's ever written about this. McCain can't raise his hands above his shoulders on account of the torture he received in Vietnam. And everytime he's out on the campaign trail and waving at folks, it's a constant reminder of his torture. At least it is to me. He might as well be in a wheelchair or something, since on the political trail, he's always got this outward sign of torture. Of course, McCain can't help this, but it's kind of like waving or giving the thumbs up is to McCain as the 9/11 reference is to Giuliani. Do other people think this?

Not me. The thought of McCain being unable to raise his hands above his shoulders isn't at all like being in a wheelchair, at least to me. I know of McCain's torture, but don't remember the hands over the shoulders thing unless I'm reminded about it. It's not obvious to viewers (unlike, say, a wheelchair).

[gahrie]

Mad Max:

I'm not running for president and being greated as the second coming of Christ.

[gahrie]

make that "greeted".

[Mad Max, Esquire]

Granted, I think the Obama Christ thing is a bit much. That said, Obama has accomplished quite a lot in his lifetime, especially given his background.

He went to Harvard Law, where he was editor of the Harvard Law Review. My understanding is he didn't eek through school on a Gentleman's C either, unlike Dubya, Gore and that other 2nd coming of Christ - JFK.

He served in the Illinois State House for several years where he authored and passed a lot of legislation. Was he a ceremonial Governor like Dubya was in Texas? No. But he was in a position to understand the legislative process.

He has had four years in the U.S. Senate, which is about as much as John Edwards had when he ran the first time for POTUS.

In terms of actual hands-on experience with the legislative process, Obama has more experience than Hillary.

[Briandot]

"Mao, Josef, Fidel le Cas,
name me a country where they haven't starv'd
Liberals promise E-QUAL-IT-TEE
and deliver bankruptcy for all for free."

Denmark.

[CD]

What do you mean, given his background?! Obama was raised by highly educated, progressive people (mother, stepfather and grandparents) in Hawaii, Indonesia and Illinois. He was no po' boy, living on the ghetto streets. He went to a good college straight after high school and transferred to an even better one. His story ever since has been exactly the same as the countless others who have travelled that same path and make up the vast majority of our political citizenry.

NONE of the candidates left lived through any kind of struggle worthy of any note as children. Hell, Mr. White Boy Gazillionaire John Edwards was actually the one who came from the most humble background.

I'm not saying this has any bearing on who one should vote for... but, please, just because Obama is half-black and because his biological father left the family, we assume this means he has accomplished everything 'against all odds'.

For someone who was actually raised on frickin' welfare and government cheese, and for whom the police were a regular household occurence, I say gag me.

[4-7]

well, I guess some have not starved. Then again, the Conservative revolution in France was borne out of full employment for youth and faith in socialist policies, huh ?

[Mad Max, Esquire]

CD-

Yes, given Obama's background. His father left when he was two. He spent years in the Southside of Chicago. He was raised by his grandparents. No, he wasn't the son of a poor mill worker or of a raging alcoholic (like Bill Clinton), but you seriously can't compare his upbringing to that of Hillary Clinton, George W. Bush or Al Gore. He was no son of privilege.

[CD]

Mad Max, you no not whereof you speak. His time in Chicago was as an adult with an ivy league degree, working. If you don't understand the difference between making that kind of a *choice* as a single adult coming to a community as an educated outsider trying to make it better vs. being raised by struggling parent(s) as a child in an inner-city, than, well, you are ignorant.

Yes, his father left when he was two... to go get a PhD at Harvard and leave the country (interpersonally traumatic, but not as though he landed in jail as a crack head).

There simply is not some kind of epic socio-economic struggle type of situation. By his own descriptions and based upon the facts, he was created by and raised by highly educated, progressive people, who were solidly middle class, which by the way is the kind of family Hillary Clinton also came from (again, you know not whereof you speak). He never struggled to make it to or into a private college, and he never had to rely upon the kindness of strangers to survive. His is not a low SES, against all odds story. It just isn't. He doesn't even try to claim it, but ignorant people assume that because he is black and came from an untraditional family it must mean he overcame great obstacles to become successful. An assumption that I think betrays many layers of stereotyping and presumption that could use some unpacking.

Here is the condensed Wikipedia description if you want:

Obama was born on August 4, 1961 in Honolulu, Hawaii to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr. (born in Nyanza Province, Kenya, of Luo ethnicity) and Ann Dunham (born in Wichita, Kansas).[10] Throughout his early years, he was commonly known at home and school as "Barry".[11] Obama's parents met while both were attending the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where his father was enrolled as a foreign student.[12] They separated when he was two years old and later divorced.[13] His father went to Harvard University to pursue Ph.D. studies, then returned to Kenya, where he died in an auto accident in 1982.[14] His mother married another foreign student, Lolo Soetoro, and the family moved to Soetoro's home country of Indonesia in 1967.[15] Obama attended local schools in Jakarta from ages 6 to 10, where classes were taught in Indonesian.[16][17] He then returned to Honolulu to live with his maternal grandparents while attending Punahou School, which he described in his 1995 memoir, Dreams from My Father, as a 'prestigious prep school', from the fifth grade until his graduation in 1979.[18] He later wrote of his time in Hawaii: "The opportunity that Hawaii offered—to experience a variety of cultures in a climate of mutual respect—became an integral part of my world view, and a basis for the values that I hold most dear."[19] Obama's mother died of ovarian cancer in 1995.[20]

In Dreams from My Father, Obama describes his experiences growing up in his mother's American middle class family.

[Condor]

"Mad Max, you no not whereof you speak."

Given that that's a double negative, does that mean Mad Max knows whereof he speaks?

[CD]

Indeed. Know.

[thebeef]

Agreed, Brendan, Obama does talk about substance and to accuse him of never talking about substance is inaccurate.

However, Obama's support does not appear as though it is founded upon Obama's stance on substantive issues. His support appears as though it is based on fluff, such as Obama's charisma, message of changea and unity, his energy and presence, etc., etc.

And the more Obama can get away without talking about substance, the better he seems to do.

[gahrie]

As to Mr. Obama's legislative accomplishments...please list a few of them, in either the Illinois legislature or the Senate.

As far as I know, Mr. "present" in not lauded by anybody for his legislative accomplishments.

[kcatnd]

Ever Googled anything gahrie? Why don't you make the effort yourself before trying to land a cheap blow?

The "present" criticism is a weak one. I assume you are referring to his time in the Illinois state legislature. It is normal practice to vote present on bills that a legislator finds poorly worded or possibly unconstitutional. The technicalities of legislature look ridiculous under surface-deep public scrutiny, but a lot of them are thoughtful consideration and sound judgment. To be fair, Obama did vote present on some sensitive political issues, but often due to provisions he opposed in bills he would otherwise support.

Some highlights while in the state legislature in Illinois:
-expanding Kidcare (health insurance for an additional 20,000 Illinois children
-welfare reform (a bipartisan bill passed in Republican controlled senate, generating major headlines)
-earned income tax credit (tax relief for working poor families)
-death penalty reform. (He supports the death penalty in exceptional circumstances, but wanted all interrogations to be videotaped. The bill passed the Senate 58-0, and was signed into law by a governor who originally opposed Obama's bill)

-Voted for, or sponsored, over 100 bills to strengthen criminal penalties (e.g. against sex offenders, domestic violence, drug dealers)).
-Opposed a bill that allowed home owners to use a gun in self defense in their homes. (He opposed that bill because it only applied to towns that already prohibited any private citizen from possessing a handgun. He opposed it because the law could lead to homeowners using guns in the street. He also wanted to defer to local governments.)

In the U.S. Senate:

-During the two years in the U.S. Senate in which Obama was part of the Democratic majority, he sponsored 780 bills, and 280 of those were signed into law.

-Lugar-Obama legislation that has helped decrease the threat of old nuclear, biological, and chemical weapon in the former Soviet Union

-Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act of 2006 which Obama co-authored and that led to USAspending.gov, which keeps Americans better informed on government spending.