Pope-pourri

Though unofficial, it looks like Pope Benedict XVI will likely visit Washington, DC when he visits the US in April.  Also likely on the schedule: Mass in Central Park plus a visit to Ground Zero and a trip to Boston.

Maybe the message of peace he delivers to the UN will resonate with some of those folks in our nation's capital.

Comments

[dcl]

Josh, I've told Brendan before, never trust the Washington Times... Sorry, any opportunity to bash the Washington Times must be taken...

[Marty West]

The Pope is a Hitler youth boy toucher.

[Joe Mama]

never trust the Washington Times...

Yeah, 'cause the Washington Post is so much better...

[4-7]

West, you don't want to be worth a damn at the end of the day, do you. Can't you go lick one of your post-modernist god's toes on some other blogs where people don't have to read your broken violin of whatever's animating your anti-establishmentism.

I'll say a prayer for you later. I'll also say an Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be for the Pope's intentions today. Now, what are you going to do about it ? I mean, you can't can you ? Boy, if only we didn't have to have jobs we could just play with people like M.W. all day long.

The Pope is a Hitler youth boy toucher.

Spoken like a victim of the Catholic church's boy love himself. Better put some ice on that, Marty.

[Spokesman for NAMBLA]

We are still hashing out the details regarding the Pope's attendance to our annual convention next Spring. Hopefully we'll be able to lock him in sometime by the new year - I'll keep you posted.

Bummer about that $600 million verdict out in Cali against the Church. How will they ever pay up? Oh, wait, I remember - they are selling off convents.

[I R A Darth Aggie]

Bummer about that $600 million verdict out in Cali against the Church.

That was a settlement, not a verdict. I'll let the local legal eagles explain the difference to you...

[Josh Rubin]

DCL: I don't usually trust the Washington Times, but you'll note that I didn't make much comment besides saying that they were reporting that the Pope was coming :-) (I feel like the Jewish Paul Revere--"The Pope is coming! The Pope is coming!")

Isn't this Benedict XVI's first trip to the US in the spring?

[Josh Rubin]

*Won't this be Benedict's first trip to the US?

[Brendan]

Maybe the message of peace he delivers to the UN will resonate with some of those folks in our nation's capital.

Because you know, it's really that simple: are you pro-peace, or are you anti-peace? So yeah, hopefully the Pope's "message of peace" will convert some of those chest-thumping pro-war Neanderthals in D.C. over to the peaceful way of thinking. If only they would see reason, they'd realize that peace is always better than war!! Nevermind that, without an "anti-peace" crowd, we never would have earned our independence from the Crown, ended slavery, defeated the Nazis, deposed the Taliban and Saddam Hussein, etc. etc. ... It's all about PEACE, man!!

Sorry, but you struck a nerve with your phraseology. I have no problem with principled arguments against this particular war, but when the whole debate gets framed as whether or not people are willing to abide by a "message of peace," it pisses me off. "Peace" is not always the answer. Sometimes "peace" equals tyranny, oppression, genocide, etc.

I feel like the Jewish Paul Revere

LOL!

And by the way, I don't mean to suggest that you, Josh, actually believe anything as facile as "peace is always better than war." I'm sure you're perfectly well aware of the ridiculousness of that statement. Like I said, it's just your phraseology in that one quoted sentence that I object to. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but it seems to implicitly assumes, as a premise, that the reason the war in Iraq is still happening is because a "message of peace" hasn't yet "resonated" with enough people in D.C. Whereas I suspect the reason the war is still happening is because some of those believe that "peace" -- i.e., withdrawal of our troops -- would lead to all-out civil war, wholesale genocide, Iranian hegemony and/or further destabilization of a region that is crucial to our national security. Each of those points is subject to debate, of course, as is whether those things are "worth it" for the benefits of withdrawal, or perhaps that they're inevitable so we might as well get it over with. But in any event, those are the things we need to be debating -- not whether peace is a good thing in the abstract, which everyone agrees on.

[JO]

Maybe the message of peace he delivers to the UN will resonate with some of those folks in our nation's capital.

I'm sure you're referring to when Ahmenijada-whatever his name is visits.

[Josh Rubin]

Brendan, I think you took my statement too personally. That wasn't a tongue-in-cheek reference to the current war, or to any war in particular. Rather, I sometimes feel that there are certain influences in DC (not all of them on the Hill, either... there are quite a few on K Street, not to mention over the river in the Pentagon) who may sometimes put war a little too high on their list of solutions.

And I said that I hope that the message of peace resonates with our leaders. That doesn't mean that there aren't times when war is absolutely necessary. All that means is that this Pope (and more especially the previous Pope) is a peace-monger extrordinaire, and people can learn quite a bit from him.

Again, I didn't mean to offend anyone specific (though I admit that I have been opposed to the War in Iraq since before the President sent in troops).

[Marty West]

4-7 -

How can you dedicate time, money, and effort to an organization that continues to side with child molestors? They would rather settle then take it like a man(or boy...in their case).

[Brendan Loy]

Fair enough, Josh.

[Angrier and Angrier]

But will he have time on his schedule to see Condi Rice THIS time?

[Angrier and Angrier]

Joe Mama-

Editorial bent aside, the Washington Times is a crap paper. I know lots of Republicans and I can't think of any of them that would say the Times is as good, much less better than, The Washington Post.

Trying to say otherwise would be like a liberal claiming The New York Observer is better than the Wall Street Journal. It is foolish on the face of it.

Darth, you bring up a very good point - paying out a $600 million settlement is a lot different than being awarded a $600 million dollar verdict. The Church would never admit any culpability or wrong-doing and was never found guilty in a court of law.
But that does not change the fact that many of us "Cradle Catholics" are absolutely disgusted by our church's actions and never plan on giving another dime to a diocese that simply uses the money to fund its legal defenses.

[4-7]

Marty, I can't argue with you. You just don't get it. and you never will. See, I know that drives you crazy. That's why I'm typing it. What drives angry people like you mad is that you can drag any scandal out into the street and it doesn't clear the house. We're more than the sum of our parts, and we're more than the sum of a tiny subsection of our parts. We won't ever be destroyed in your lifetime and probably not ever. Don't you just hate that ? It kills you. I wish it didn't. It's a good faith. You'd like it if you could get over yourself.

Here, go back and play with your friends.

www.dailykoz.com

[4-7]

It's so sad how some people honestly believe there is nothing material about the Catholic Church other than its scandals. People with degrees (I mean high school degrees).

I mean, really, in a selfish and materialistic age, shouldn't be best church be the one the anti-religious hate the most ? I think people like Marty West, Trey Parker and Matt Stone, Penn and Teller, Christopher Hitchens are the best argument that the Catholic Church is likely the surest of all spiritual roads. I am baptized in assuredness with their venom.

[Marty West]

4-7,

I went to a Catholic grade school (St. George), high school (Cardinal O'Hara) and university (LaSalle University).

I have studied the Catholic faith my entire life and have a huge respect for it. I was very active in the church (CYO, CSC, etc..) However, I don't have respect for organizations that placate their members with money instead of dealing with the issues at hand. The fact is that the abuse scandal is tearing up the Catholic faith. It's why I left the church.

[The Church]

Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

[Marty West]

Enjoy your fairy tales.

The Scandals and the Bingo are my two favorite parts of the church! I'm a big fan of J.C. and the alter wine too. The School Sisters of Notre Dame were some of the best, most dedicated teachers a student could ever ask for (no sarcasm there - I mean it). My small parish was wonderful, the church as a whole - NOT SO MUCH.
The pedophilia scandals and the systematic cover-up of the scandals is heartbreaking. Why can't we get back to the banking scandals of the 80s? You know, when all the church did was hold a controlling interest in an Italian bank that laundered heroin money and then ran it to the ground. At least back then the church admitted "moral involvement" and paid a quarter of a billion dollars (sorry Darth, don't know if it was a verdict or a settlement) and the only collateral damage was was one banker hanging from Blackfriars in London.

[4-7]

yeah, and if you guys or any off-shoot church had 1 billion members, you would be so well insulated from natural human corruption and incompetence. You overstate to fulfill you current need. good luck.

[4-7]

yeah, and if you guys or any off-shoot church had 1 billion members, you would be so well insulated from natural human corruption and incompetence. You overstate to fulfill you current need. good luck.

[4-7]

and Marty, you think all the church has done since Bernard Law, or whatever his name is, is throw money at people ? you're an idiot. Why don't we look at the incidence of mishandling since Law ? The church has a limited supply of money, meant for good and holy purposes. It also has something called liability insurance with a finite reserve. If you were the head of any organization you would act no different when a lawyer tells you - we can settle all liabilities right now for 600$ million, and insurance will cover X, or we can keep going to trial and you can face 5$ billion in punitive damages in one case, and start selling schools where inner city children get private education for free, closing soup kitchens, consolidate parishes, hamstring Catholic communities (all this while disloyal catholics pretentiously use the scandal as a pretext for keeping money out of the collection plate). Any catholic will admit a scandal occured, but you want Pedophilia to be the Halliburton or 9/11-was-an-inside-job of the Catholic Church. You and people like you. It's never going to be about pedophelia generally, or about natural mismanagement caused by the self-interested fears with anyone in authority. It has to be the Catholic Church that gets excoriated endlessly. So you begin to assume that even some small (rather the infintesimal) percentage of priests are afflicted with these problems, and that every child in every parish should look over his shoulder fearful of the secret intentions of a man who, in the vast majority of cases, has sacrificed family and wealth to serve a community 17 hours a day. But go ahead, surely you have an answer for all these claims - surely 1 and ever 2 priests in your orgasmic fantasy of righteous indignation at the Church is a pedophile and a bishop licking his chops like a fat king atop a pile of money idly reshuffles them from parish to parish. Surely that is the real situation here. Surely if the Church only willfully ruined itself for all future generations financially at the exposure of juries (who are oh so discriminating and sophisticated when it comes to tort recovery), or changed its archaic doctrine (marriage is a cure for pedophelia right ?), surely then we could hope to have you back. And just like our friend who posted about Italian bank fraud, and surely someone can bring up Pius XII (false though the accusations are), and the Inquisition, and whatever, the fact remains that there are three kinds of former Catholics in this world - (1) those who stopped believing in its teachings on intellectual grounds; (2) those with a personal greivance unwilling to divide the persons putting into practice from the greater Body and mission; (3) those who just can't wait for the Church to fall on its sword and die. If it wasn't this, you would have found something else. I'm now going to give you a Shrute "shun" and not believe anything you say from here on it. I do have to work some today.

[4-7]

yeah, and the Pope really deserved this discussion in a thread about him coming to visit America. But he's a Catholic and the top Dog so we have to talk about pedophelia.

[4-7]

Because Marty West has a legitimate grievance against the Church. That's why he started his post as "I find it difficult to celebrate the Pope's visit to the United States. While the Catholic Church has made efforts to reform itself, I believe instances such as the settlement still reveal a vested interest in avoiding responsi--" Oh wait, no he said Benedict was a hitler youth boy toucher. Ah. I see. Nevermind.

4-7, the church may not be "ruining itself for future generations" but the younger generation within the church is leaving in mass exodus. And I can't help but wonder how much our scandals have impacted this? Can I give you some startling statistic or quote? No. Can I attest to it myself as a life-long Catholic who has gone to Mass every Sunday for decades and counts a number of Priests and Nuns as friends? Yes.
From the small town churches to larger, city parishes the under-40 age group has been steadily disappearing from Sunday Mass. I have been involved in CYO for years and recently had a conversation with a visiting Priest who had been concerned for the last decade (before the latest scandal hit) regarding the loss of youth within the Church. His parish was losing in his words, "8 out of 10 young people."
Right now in my church we lose about half our college-age parishioners because they go away to school,which is totally understandable, but of the other half who attend school locally (we have one major University 5 minutes away, another within 30 minutes) most stop attending Mass even as their parents continue. We rarely gain more than a handful of college students when each school year begins.
A number of these young people move back after college and simply don't attend anymore. The sad thing is that it effects every aspect of our parish. With the number of young families dwindling we have realized that it may be a reality one day that we will have to close our school.
4-7, I understand your anger at some of the posters here. My first reaction to such attacks on my Church is anger as well. I am afraid that a certain segment of society truly does desire to see the Church fail. Pray for them. Their anger must be very hard to bear.

[Marty West]

3 parishes by me have closed within the last 4 years...with 2 more closing their doors in the next year. And it's not because of the scandals it's because no one goes to church anymore...no one cares.