Jones to Cincy

Demetrius Jones, who disastrously started Notre Dame's season opener at QB and then notoriously quit the team right before the Michigan game without telling anybody his plans, is going to Cincinnati instead of Northern Illinois. (Hat tip: Patrick.)

The sad thing is, that's a step up at this point. The Bearcats are 4-0 and ranked for the first time since 1976. Notre Dame... eh, you all know how Notre Dame is doing. In any event, I wish him well.

On an unrelated note, I'm really, really going to try to make time tomorrow evening to finally get the pick 'em contest online. Considering the regular season is basically one-third over, I figure it's time. :) Also coming tomorrow, hopefully: an update on the Terrific Twenty-Three (i.e., the remaining undefeated teams), and who they play this weekend. If I have time, I'll do the Egregious Eleven as well (the winless teams).

UPDATE BY DAVID K.: The South Bend Tribune is reporting that Notre Dame sophomore lineman Chris Stewart has traveled home to Texas to spend time with his family, and is considering leaving the school and the team. If he leaves, Stewart would be the third player to leave the team in the past two weeks and the 17th to leave since Charlie Weis took over the program.

(Hat tip: Timugen in comments.)

Comments

[Timugen]

Evidently Chris Stewart is leaving now as well.

[Marty West]

Jimmy Clausen should leave and play for Temple.

[Angrier and Angrier]

It is interesting how Jones had nothing but good things to say about Weis, yet you are seeing this exodus. I imagine the real story will come out should Weis be shown the door at the end of this season, 10-year-contract or not.

All of these guys were passed on the depth chart by freshmen this season. Reuland was a 4th stringer, Jones a 3rd stringer (with a top 5 qb recruit coming in next season), and Stewart was similarly buried. It's not surprising that they have decided to transfer, as they would probably rather have a chance to start than be spot players.

Stewart never played a down, which gives you an idea of his potential, since ND's OL has certainly struggled this season.

Programs with good talent and depth often see a lot of attrition (in ND's case, that talent and depth is in the freshmen and sophomore classes, and the incoming 2008 recruiting class). I don't blame these guys for leaving. They want a chance to play, and if they aren't going to get it at ND, they should have the right to find it somewhere else. You're only in college once.

I imagine the real story will come out should Weis be shown the door at the end of this season, 10-year-contract or not.

Your obsession with Weis is getting downright creepy.

[Becky]

I was just mentioning to Brendan the other day that those "9-3 is not good enough" towels that they gave to the stadium last year seem quite a bit different now than they did at the time.

Um, so why is it different that some of the players that Ty recruited left and now players that Weis has recruited are leaving? Is that an unfair double standard or is there something deeper going on that I don't understand? Don't you expect players recruited by a coach to play for that coach to leave if the coach leaves? I'm confused about this.

Becky,

I think it's normal to have attrition with a coaching change. A lot of these kids sign on because they really like the coach, and when he leaves, they leave with him, or go somewhere else because they see the writing on the wall with the new coach and figure out that they won't see much playing time. There are also a certain number of coaches who get to a program and weed out a bunch of guys who don't get with their program. Urban Meyer had massive attrition at Utah when he first got there. He's a tough coach, and a lot of the guys couldn't take it and transferred. Turned out pretty well for him, as he had great success at Utah.

Hell, I remember when Matt Doherty got to UNC hoops, he chased off 3 or 4 guys out of a 14 man roster. Then he recruited a bunch of studs that Roy Williams would lead to a championship to replace the departed guys.

Transfers are a major part of big time college sports. They almost exclusively happen for three reasons:

homesickness
coaching change
playing time.

In this case, it looks like the 3 (4, if you include former 4th string QB Zach Fraser) that left fall into the playing time category. As an ND fan, it's nice to see some competition, and it's encouraging to know that the young talent is pushing each other. We've had far too many guys guaranteed spots for too many seasons, just because nobody else was good enough to beat them out.

[fezafou]

transering is the sign of a heathly program (i know were 0-4) that shows there is young and inexperienced depth at these positions, these guys are doing whats best for them personally, most were not gonna play, as recruiting expert Tom Lemming's put it "with the current sophomore class, freshman class, and #1 class coming in, and also the start they have on the junior class, by 2009, ND will have more talent than any team in the country" not my words just an expert. USC, Florida, Texas all have tranfers as i said its the sign of a healty program. and becky the difference we could have used ty's departures at this point in time with the diminished junior and senior class, weis players are buried on the depth chart and dont affect the team that much. Weis is not leaving anytime soon. Thank You.

[anon]

It is interesting how Jones had nothing but good things to say about Weis, yet you are seeing this exodus.

I don't know what papers you've been reading.

It stung. When I heard Jimmy was No. 1 all the way through spring and that the only thing keeping him out of the lineup was his surgery, well, that's not what I was led to believe going into the summer. I thought I was getting a chance because coach Weis believed in me. Then I didn't know what to believe anymore.

After that, he came out to apologize to the world because, well, everyone ripped him for being a jerk about it. The post hoc praise of Weis is little more than an excuse to ensure that ND released him from his scholarship without bad blood, to return to media favor, etc.

[David K.]

fezafou and anon, transfering can also be a sign of a poor coaching environment.

becky, trouble is this guy along with Jones are Weis recruits, if Stewart does leave he will be the fourth from Weis second class to leave the program

[fezafou]

david last week in the South Bend Tribune D Jones said "weis was a father figure to me, and i love what notre dame did for me," he was at the ND-MSU game this weekend on the ND sideline in fulld ND gear. you have the intial quote from D jones not what was said after that.

[fezafou]

so emanual moody going to florida was a bad coaching enviroment? you make terrible arguments David K.

David K is right, transfering can be a sign of a poor coaching environment BUT in ND's case it may not be a "poor coaching environment" in terms of the coach is an a-hole or doesn't understand Xs and Os, rather Weis may have too much of an NFL mentality when it comes to dealing with players. What did Parcells and Belichick do with players buried on their depth charts when Charlie was coaching with them (besides release and put 'em on waivers)? Answer, they ignored them almost completely. It wasn't that they screamed at them everyday in practice and the film-rooms, they simply let very low-level assistants deal with them. Having a family friend who's been with the Pats organization (scouting) for nine years, I can tell ya, when The Hoody shuns you, the Hoody shuns you completely! And we all know that secretly (or maybe not so secretly) Weis really wants to be just like The Hoody.

[Angrier and Angrier]

Watch out, Becky. If you ask legitimate questions about Weis, you will appear "obsessed." God forbid you should bring up Weis's name in a thread about his former players.

[David K.]

fezafou, I realize you must be an ND fan, and are trying to stay positive in the face of adversity. I also realize that I am not the biggest Charlie Weis fan, but I really really think your being far to defensive and frankly completely mischaracterizing my points. Anonymous below you gets it right. Its not that I think Weis might be a jerk or anything, a poor coaching environment can mean that while the players might like him as a person they don't feel like he is doing the right things as a coach. I once had an instructor in college who was a really nice guy, and was plenty smart and had industry experience, but was a terrible instructor. Its a class i almost transfered out of because I didn't feel like I was going to get much value out of it. If these players don't feel like they can suceed under Weis they should consider going elsewhere, whether he is a nice guy or not, and that demonstrates a deficency in his ability to be an effective college head coach.

[Burkeman]

The rats are leaving the ship. Why wish quitters good luck if they don't believe enough in their skills to be able to play on a 0-4 team. I say good riddance and keep the door open.

There's a whole lot of unsubstantiated conjecture in this comment section. Most of it by folks that I'm guessing do not like Notre Dame or Charlie Weis. I have not seen one piece of evidence that the transfers are related to anything other than depth chart concerns. Jones admitted as much. Rueland was 4th string. Stewart was an overweight backup/project who couldn't get himself game ready, and never stepped on the field.

Rather than engaging in guesswork about "poor coaching environments," I prefer to look at objective evidence such as the depth chart.

These kids were backups. This happens all the time. There is absolutely no evidence that this was a Mitch Mustain "I hate you Daddy!" situation.

[Patrick]

What a transfer says about the health and strength of a program depends upon the individual in question.

Example ... Mitch Mustain transferring from Arkansas along with all of his other Springdale, AR, teammates is highly indicative of dissatisfaction for Coach Houston Nutt among his players. Losing to transfer a true phenom quarterback with skills that far surpass your starter is anything but the sign of a healthy program.

Another example ... Brock Berlin transferring from Florida to Miami several years back was the sign of a very healthy Florida program. Berlin wasn't playing because Rex Grossman had proven himself an incredible college QB (his NFL quality obviously is suspect). If you remember correctly, Brock Berlin was the nation's number one recruit by just about every recruiting service during his senior year at Evangel Christian in Shreveport, LA. A quarterback of his calibur could not simply sit and not play when there were plenty of other opportunities in big-time D-1A programs. He wasn't playing at Florida because Florida simply had too much depth at QB. Thus, the transfer of Berlin was a sign of a healthy program.

With Frazer and Jones, it's something more akin to the Brock Berlin scenario, only that the true depth of the skill at QB at Notre Dame has yet to be realized due to the team's youth. It's clearly a very young, inexperienced team. As for Chris Stewart, if he's not getting PT among ND's current offensive line, he must really suck. I don't think it says anything at all about the strength of Notre Dame's program.

[Brendan Loy]

I agree with anon @ 2:24:40. When there's even a shred of evidence -- as opposed to supposition and conjecture -- that these kids are leaving because Weis is an asshole, then we'll have something to talk about. Right now, this is sound and fury signifying nothing. There are a whole bunch of different reason why kids transfer, as has been articulated quite well by others on this thread, and absent any actual reason (aside from anti-Weis bias) to believe it's the coach's fault, it makes no sense to just assume that's the case.

It think I know what you'll say in response, David: "but four players -- this is clearly becoming a pattern!" But the existence of a pattern of factual events cannot estabilsh, by itself, the cause of those events, if there are multiple competing explanations, each of which could independently explain the "pattern." There's a pattern of something, sure, or at least it looks that way, but we can't reasonably surmise what that pattern is on the basis of nothing but conjecture.

I'm no Weis apologist, but I think this whole line of discussion is, at least at the moment, bullcrap. I'm not saying I'm convinced these players definitely didn't leave the program because Weis is an asshole, but it seems to me like it's the least plausible of two or three good explanations I've heard. And even if you think it's more plausible than I do, the fact remains that it's still just conjecture at this point. It's like you always used to say, David, about Weis's supposed "genius," that it hadn't been proven yet. Well, the notion that Weis is in any way at fault for these kids' departures -- that their departures reflect poorly on him in any way -- has not been proven yet.

[Angrier and Angrier]

I kinda doubt the whole "sinking ship" scenario. Playing for a crappy ND team is still better than playing for Northern Illinois. As for Cincy, I doubt Jones will be getting to the front of a 4-0 team faster than he would have an 0-4 team if he had just stayed at ND.

Like I said, Jones has had nothing but nice things to say about Weis. In fact, he was a bit upset when people asked him if he was leaving because of Weis. Still, you have to wonder if that will change over time.

[Admiral Halsey]

Well said, Brendan. And I'm not just saying that because you agree with me!
(I was the anonymous commenter who forgot to sign my name).

[David K.]

Brendan, apparently you aren't reading what I write because I have specifically spelled out that people can leave a program due to coaching not because the coach is an asshole but because the players don't feel like that coach is setting up them or their team to succeed. I don't think its unreasonble to consider the idea that as a possibility for some of the transfers that have occured given the state of the program on the field. I'm not saying it IS the case, i'm just saying it MIGHT be the case and there are SOME indications as to why.

I agree it could also be depth related, or homesickeness, or any number of things, or even a COMBINATION. Suggesting a possibility that team atmosphere and the coach might be playing a part in these departures is far far FAR different from the declarations that Weis WAS a genius, I hope you can see the difference between speculation and assertion.

[Brendan Loy]

I don't think its unreasonble to consider the idea that as a possibility for some of the transfers that have occured given the state of the program on the field. I'm not saying it IS the case, i'm just saying it MIGHT be the case and there are SOME indications as to why.

It's thosee "SOME indications as to why" that I'm missing, David. I have seen absolutely nothing in terms of "indications" except for rank speculation, bare assertions, and a single quote from Jones, from when his disappointment was still very raw, that he later very clearly took back. So, certainly I can see the difference between speculation and assertion -- I didn't mean to suggest a precise equivalence between that situation and this one -- I'm just saying there's a similarity in the lack of evidence. "Suggesting a possibility that team atmosphere and the coach might be playing a part in these departures is far far FAR different from the declarations that Weis WAS a genius," but in the absence of any actual evidence to support the belief that "team atmosphere and the coach might be playing a part in these departures," and in the face of very strong alternative explanations, the question must be asked: WHY are we even talking about whether this MIGHT be true? I mean, these trasfers also MIGHT be the result of Charlie Weis being possessed by the Devil, or of an rodent infestation on Notre Dame's campus that's scaring all the players away, but I don't have any evidence to supoprt those bits of speculation, so why would I even bring them up?

[Andrew]

I don't have any more or less inside info than anyone else here with an opinion, but I think most of the comments so far are not catching the significance of the transfers. I don't know much about Stevens, and Fraser was never going to play with all the talent ahead of and behind him, but the Reuland and Jones losses are telling and shed some light on the Stevens situation.

There has been more than one observer who has noted that Weis tends to focus an inordinate amount of time on the offense, and especially on the QB and the starters. There's nothing wrong with that per se, but typically the HC needs to be involved much more evenly across the team. The key difference I see between USC, for example, and Notre Dame is that at USC, the coaches make it a point to cycle in freshmen and backups in with the starters during practice -- especially on "Competition Tuesday", when practice is treated like every position is up for grabs.

Reuland was recruited heavily by USC and many Trojans were very disappointed he chose the Irish over USC this past winter. But my guess is his exposure to USC also is what drove his dissatisfaction at ND: At USC, Rueland saw how much attention the backups got in practice, even if they never saw the field on Saturday, and when he didn't experience that at ND, suddenly being fourth on the TE depth chart was unacceptable.

Similarly, the problem with Jones is not that he was at a position loaded with talent, it was that there was no true competition after the first game, as CW decided to roll the dice and take his lumps this year with Clausen in the hopes that it would pay dividends a year or two from now. And CW made that choice without giving the other QBs a chance to raise their level and show they can be better than Clausen. Just because Clausen came in as a five-star recruit and Jones as a four-star recruit, doesn't mean Clausen will go on to become the better player. At USC, Whitney Lewis was one of the top-five players in his class and pretty much never saw the field, while Mike Williams was a borderline three-star recruit who ended up dominating. Even Chris McFoy got more playing time than did Lewis, because Lewis simply didn't earn the starting spot. Other USC transfers have been for entirely different reasons: Rocky Hinds left because he was never going to overtake Leinart, Cassel, and Booty; and Emmanuel Moody left because there were 9 other tailbacks and he wanted to be at a place where he could be a featured back (there also was an overbearing parental figure factor involved).

Unless CW can get his backups better prepared and feeling like they have a chance to compete for playing time, the defection rate will increase as these top recruiting classes come in. Top recruiting classes are empty if a handful of the best players from the previous recruiting classes leave every year (the attrition rate at SEC schools like Tennessee, Auburn, and Ole Miss are great examples of this). Yes every team lose some players to injuries and academics and coaching changes, but transfers from Rueland and Jones signify a disturbing development that Weis better correct ASAP if he wants to ever get ND back to being a top program year-in and year-out.

i love when brendan is on my side, he makes the arugments better

weis didnt give d jones a chance Andrew, he started the GT, had he played well and won, guess who the starter would be, he had his oppurtunity to keep the job.

[Andrew]

I should note that USC does pay a price for its style of mixing backups and starters and banging them together in full-intensity practices by sustaining an inordinate number of injuries compared to most other teams, especially in the fall and spring camps.

[David K.]

I love when Andrew and I agree, because that usually means WE are right :)

[Andrew]

So one half of one game behind the worst offensive line in football is enough to determine who your QB should be for the rest of the year? Yeah, that makes sense!

[Admiral Halsey]

You would not bring them up, unless they fit into your preconceived notion that Weis was an a-hole who will likely not be successful at ND.

Or you could bring them up to attempt to rattle the cages of ND fans who read this site who you believe gave Weis too much credit in his first year.

David keeps mentioning all the Irish fans who anointed Weis a genius in 2005. I don't know why he's stuck on that argument now. He has not accused anybody who posts here now of espousing it. In fact, most of his references are to unnamed people who don't comment here - the posters on NDNation. I suppose I could find a USC message board to complain about as well. Probably a good idea to let it go.

[Admiral Halsey]

Andrew,

Every theory you have about ND football always circles around to the same point: ND football and Charlie Weis suck.

I think it might be easier for you if you just left it at that rather than engage in the tortured logic of the above post, complete with unverified comments about how Reuland didn't get attention from the coaches in practice.

Also, your statement that Jones left because there was "no competition" after game 1 is almost comical. There was a competition in spring practice. Clausen apparently was the best. Then he had surgery, which made him unavailable to be ready to start in week 1. Weis thought Jones gave him the best chance to win that week, so he started him (I disagree and think he should have used Sharpley, since he knew Clausen was the best qb and the offense for both is similar, compared to the spread package that Jones ran).

Any attempt to paint this decision as unfair and depriving Jones of the chance to compete is really a stretch, and in your case, I'm not willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it is in good faith. In any event, we'll never know if Jones could have won the starting job, because he decided to take his ball and go home 2 games into his sophomore season, with 4 full seasons of eligibility ahead of him.

[David K.]

Admiral Halsey, last season and the season prior there were plenty of ND fans on THIS site annointing Weis a genius. I think it is releveant in any criticism of the collapse of this season, i'm sorry you don't feel that way.

What you also don't get is that while we may have criticisms of ND I don't believe Andrew and I *HATE* it in anyway. And i'd say based on this season saying Charlie Weis is sucking, yeah not a criticism thats too far out there.

[Andrew]

Admiral, thank God the leaders of our U.S. Navy are not as moronic as you.

I said nothing specifically about Reuland not getting attention; neither myself nor anyone else on this site were there to observe the coaches' interactions with Reuland. But there have been plenty of people commenting on message boards who have seen some of the ND practices and have made the general comment that Weis focuses more on the QB and other offensive starters. I'm also well versed with the way USC practices, so it's really quite a tiny logical leap for me to draw the conclusions I did with the information I had.

Also, your reference to the spring practice competition has being sufficient for determining the starting QB is downright comical. Everyone and anyone who paid attention to the Irish' spring and fall practices could not determine whether one QB was really separating himself from the pack.

I remember when Matt Leinart couldn't separate himself from Matt Cassel back in 2003, and the coaches annointed him the starter largely on a hunch and because, well, they had to make a choice at some point. They almost pulled the plug on him a couple games into the season, but suddenly in the 2003 ASU game the light went on for him and he was amazing from then on.

Absolutely nothing has occurred in any of the games or practices to suggest the light has gone on for Jimmy Clausen or any of the other QBs in South Bend. CW simply decided to make a decision and stick with it, the other QBs on the roster be damned. That's fine; many coaches do the same thing on the assumption that sticking with one guy is far better in the long run than yo-yo-ing your quarterbacks game-in and game-out. But just as USC's physical practices mean lots of separated shoulders and torn ACLs, so CW's MO means you can expect to see more players like Jones and Rueland bailing on ND in the future.

[Andrew]

I disagree with you, David. I do hate Notre Dame. As a Trojan, I don't know how I could not hate them. Unlike fUTLA though, I do respect Notre Dame. And love, hate, and rooting interests aside, I'm perfectly capable of being objective in my analysis. Just because I relish in the Domers' misery doesn't mean my analysis is incorrect. Similarly, just because I love USC doesn't mean I overlook some of the negatives that result from the way Pete Carroll and his staff run things. To me, it's kind of like acknowledging that John Wooden was indeed the greatest coach in college basketball history, but also pointing out that much of what occurred at fUTLA during his era was downright unethical and would've resulted in the death penalty if they were caught doing that stuff in the 1990s. Similarly, I think John McKay is the best coach in USC footall history, but he also prospered from being able to put 120 top recruits on scholarship if only to keep them from going to rival Pac-10 schools.

Bottom line: Notre Dame sucks and I'll take every opportunity to bash it, so Domers like Admiral Halsey are right to get riled up when I trash their team. But Admiral Halsey and his ilk have their heads up their asses if they think that my overall analysis of Notre Dame's foibles isn't on the mark.

[omar]

get your shots now andrew, a few years from know their gonna few and far between.

[Andrew]

We've been hearing that since you guys dumped Lou Holtz.

not from kirk herbstriet

Hey David, wasn't it you who "guaranteed" Matt Leinart would make a better NFL quarterback than Vince Young?

Yeah, how's that working out?

[kcatnd]

But Admiral Halsey and his ilk have their heads up their asses if they think that my overall analysis of Notre Dame's foibles isn't on the mark.

Andrew, this isn't even an argument and sums up your style pretty well. You're basically saying "You're an idiot if you think I'm wrong." This is a shame, too, because I really think you're capable of actually making sense, at times. Maybe if you got your head out of your own ass, you'd see that it's possible for you to be wrong at times, too.

[Becky]

Hey! Don't pick on Leinart too badly. The Cards have a whole host of institutional problems that even Joe Montana couldn't overcome.