On being an Irish fan

A classmate with unimpeachable Domer credentials sent me this blog post, which he thinks is pretty funny, and I agree. Excerpt:

SOUTH BEND, IND (AP)–Notre Dame Athletic Director Kevin White announced the signing of a contract extension to head football coach Charlie Weis this morning, inking the third year head coach to an unprecedented three hundred year contract extension worth an estimated 1.4 billion dollars in salary and benefits.

Heh. Read the whole thing. Mer-people are mentioned.

This comment by Stewart Mandel, written in the form of an open letter to White, is also rather amusing: "I'm sure when you handed over that Fort Knox-sized contract extension to Charlie Weis a couple years ago, you were expecting a slightly bigger return on your investment than, say, zero offensive touchdowns through three games. It's too bad you didn't structure the deal so that he'd be paid per rushing yard. That way, he'd owe you money right now." Heh.

Apropos of which: it has been suggested that I'm taking Notre Dame's horrendous start a little too lightly, and that my light-hearted attitude demonstrates, once and for all, that I'm not a real Irish fan.  That's a contention that some of my Domer detractors have been trying to prove for over three years now, but this particular incarnation of the argument is, on its face, better than most of the ones that have been raised before -- and this time, some of the people raising it are actually doing so in good faith. So I thought it deserved a more complete answer than "shut up, you Trojan-hating idiots."

Here's the thing. As some of my regular readers surely have noticed, I take a light-hearted attitude toward almost everything. Even when it comes to stuff I feel strongly about, I'll still joke around mercilessly. (My jokes aren't always funny, but that's a separate issue.) I have practically no sacred cows. I'll make fun of whomever, for whatever reason. For instance, I think global warming is real and a very important issue that we need to address, yet I routinely make fun of Al Gore and his fellow crusaders. I very strongly believe in gay rights, yet I crack jokes about gay issues all the time. Perhaps most relevantly, I'm a big Gonzaga fan, and that loss to UCLA two years ago was one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever seen, but I'll totally make fun of Adam Morrison for crying on the basketball court, because dammit, it's funny.

The same goes for Notre Dame. Am I happy that they're 0-3? Do I enjoy watching the utter meltdown that has occurred in South Bend? Of course not. I'd be much happier if they were unexpectedly 3-0, and we were building up for another colossal clash of titans between the Irish and Trojans. I'd be much happier if this season was like the last two, when I would routinely spend my Saturdays watching consecutive resounding victories by "my" teams. But that's not the reality. The reality is, the Irish suck right now, and they suck so badly that's it's, objectively, rather funny. I mean, c'mon: snapping the ball over the player's head on the first play of the Michigan game? That's worthy of the '62 Mets! Notre Dame -- Notre Freakin' Dame -- being ranked last in every offensive category? The irony alone is comedy gold! And for heaven's sakes, no offensive touchdowns in three games? WTF??

If USC was this bad, I'd laugh at them too.  Really, I would.  It's a big part of how I deal with disappointment, at least when we're talking about topics that are inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, like sports.  Of course, I can't prove to you, based on the archives of this blog, that I'd laugh at USC too if the Trojans were comically bad, because the Trojans have never been comically bad -- they've never been bad, period -- since I started this blog!  But if I dig through my old photos (and I'm of no mind to do that right now), I believe I'd find a picture from the fall of 1999 of my dorm-room whiteboard after a USC-Oregon contest in which Paul Hackett's Trojans set a new Pac-10 record for penalties in a game.  My reaction wasn't to wail and scream and gnash my teeth and wring my hands; I don't do teeth-gnashing and hand-wringing; it's not my thing.  Instead, my reaction was mockery.  I don't remember exactly what the whiteboard said, but it was something along the lines of congratulating the Trojans for their glorious Pac-10 record.  Mockery is always, or nearly always, my first resort in such situations.

Besides which, I don't think my "mockery" has been as bad as some suggest.  Of the specific posts that have been declared objectionable:

• I make no apologies whatsoever for the "compare and contrast" post, since that one was denigrating Notre Dame in relation to USC, which doesn't contradict my "dual loyalties" shtick at all.  Needling my fellow Domers about how USC is better than ND is a standard part of my M.O. as the "Irish Trojan."  Always has been.
  
• As for the "comedy of errors" post, well, that's just a term that describes an objective concept; it doesn't mean I personally find the errors humorous. (Though I admit, there came a point in Saturday's game where I laughed out loud, just because I didn't know how the hell else to react. Gallows humor, as the admiral said.)  A quick search of the archives reveals that I've used the same term to describe the LSU-Oklahoma title game in 2004, an Auburn-South Carolina game in 2006, and, later in 2006, a West Virginia-Louisville game.  In the latter two cases, I was talking about a series of bumbling turnovers, which is exactly what I was describing in the ND-Michigan game. So I don't think you can glean much from that.  And if you can, presumably it must follow that the proprietors of MGoBlog aren't real Michigan fans, because they called the ND-Michigan game "Cripple Fight 2007," a rather politically incorrect reference to the general ineptitude of both teams that I'd say involves far more severe mockery than "comedy of errors." (Indeed, MGoBlog has been chock full of self-mockery since the loss to Appalachian State.)
  
• Speaking of (hot! hot! hot!) Appy State... that reader poll about which is worse, losing to Appalachian State or playing like the Irish did against Michigan, was a straight-up honest question! It wasn't a joke at all. I was really curious what people thought about it.
• I think the most legit objection is to the second set of polls -- not so much the first one, which was, again, a real and serious question, but the second one, which did indeed amount to "insubstantial mockery."  On that, I refer to my above explanation, about how I routinely make jokes without regard to my actual feelings on the underlying issue, and also, about how mockery is one of the ways I deal with disappointment.  (Not so much the bitter disappointment of a heartbreaking loss -- though sometimes that, too, as in the Gonzaga example -- but more often the resigned disappointment of rooting for a team that's just awful, as Notre Dame is right now, and Buffalo is always... and I routinely mock them for it, even as I constantly cheer for them to surprise everyone, myself included, and win.)

I think the bigger reason people are objecting to my mockery is because it hasn't really been mixed in with some more serious analysis, as it usually would be.  (And therein lies the biggest difference between myself and MGoBlog in this regard.)  As I've said, I have a lengthy post rolling around in my head about the Irish's woes, and I still hope to write it someday soon (ideally before Saturday, since hopefully they'll beat Michigan State and render it at least partially moot), but I just haven't gotten around to it yet.  Frankly, I'm still adjusting to this whole "having a job" thing, and the concomitant reduction in my amount of free time -- and I've also had a lot of time-consuming technical server-related work to do this week -- so I just haven't been able to carve out much time for lengthy and substantive blog posts.  (Writing up this one has been a multi-day task.)  Insubstantial mockery is easier and less time-consuming, so that's what I've posted.  The resulting slant in terms of the blog's content says nothing about my loyalties, it's just a result of my prioritizing my job and other tasks ahead of the blog.

In any event, I will concede one point, at least.  Although I am legitimately a Notre Dame fan, I'm certainly not anywhere near the zenith of crazy die-hard fandom when it comes to the Irish.  I would never claim that mantle.  There are many, many people out there who are bigger, more passionate, more devoted ND fans than I am.  I root for the Irish in every game except the one against USC, but I don't live and die with their success and failure like some fans do.  This is partly the result of my demeanor as a fan generally (I'm too A.D.D. to be that singularly devoted to any team), and partly the result of my dual loyalties: there's really no way I can truly be a die-hard Irish fan when I know I'm inevitably going to end up rooting against them in the biggest game of the year.  I can be a fan, but not a die-hard fan, because I can never get totally emotionally invested in the team. So to the extent I'm being accused of not being a die-hard fan, I plead guilty as charged.  But to the extent the implication is "that means you're not a fan at all, so stop pretending to be one," I plead absolutely, 100% not guilty, as a famous Trojan once said.  (See!  I just mocked USC!  The fact that one of our seven Heisman Trophy winners is also a double murderer -- well, it's not funny, exactly, but it's certainly mockable, and thus I mock it!  My mockery knows no school colors.)  As I've said before, there are many different types of fans, with many different levels of interest and devotion, and the sports world has room for all of them -- well, most of them, anyway -- without the necessity of calling the vast bulk of sports fans "bandwagoners" or "wannabes" or "pretenders" just because they don't treat their fandom as if it's literally a religion.

There's one other question -- or a shade of the same question, I guess -- that's been raised, and I think it deserves to be addressed specifically. John wrote: "You're giving this regular reader the impression that you were an ND fan on campus, but now that you're gone, you don't give a damn about the Irish.  Now, that's fine, and tons of grad students do that same thing, but it's only right that you drop the 'ND fan blog' act in that case." 

I've already denied that I "don't give a damn about the Irish," but I think the bigger question, and it's a legitimate one, is this: Is my loyalty to the Irish fading as I move away from campus? And I think the honest answer is: maybe a little bit.  Maybe I've gone from being a 90% fervent Irish fan (I can never claim to have been 100%, for the reasons elucidated above... and the endless rhetorical beating that I've taken on the Internets over the last three years from the incredibly annoying vocal minority of the ND fan base that regards me as an unholy apostate probably shaved a couple percentage points off as well) to, oh, let's say 85%.  I still like the Irish, I still root for them, I still care about them.  But I can't deny there's something in the air on ND's campus that makes you care about them even more, something about going to six (or seven) home games a year that makes you an even bigger fan.  And that element is gone now.  That doesn't make me suddenly a non-fan, but does it make me less of a fan?  Maybe.

The next logical question is: If my passion for the Irish has already faded slightly, does that mean it will continue to fade with time?  Will that 85% become 80%, or 70%, or 50%, or 25%, as the years go by?  Here the honest answer is: I don't think so, but I can't make any promises, because sports loyalties aren't logical things.  I can't promise how I'll feel about a team in a year, or five years, of 50 years.  But I know this: I hardly ever stop rooting for a team once I've started.  As I wrote last fall in response to accusations of being a "bandwagon" fan: "Yes, I like a lot of different teams, and yes, I sometimes 'adopt' new ones. But once I start rooting for team, I root for them in good times and bad."  So I'm pretty confident that I'll always cheer for the Irish. But will I always consider them my "second-favorite team"?  Or will my passion for Irish football subtly trickle down into the ranks of what you might call "second-tier favorites," teams I keep an eye on and hope to see do well, teams I always root for (unless a conflicting loyalty intervenes), but not with the passion of rooting for a "favorite" -- teams like Tennessee, Rutgers, UConn and Buffalo?  I seriously doubt it, because Notre Dame is my alma mater now.  But I can't totally deny this possibility.

One final point, though.  Even if I were to become less fervent in my Notre Dame fandom -- even if they were to become a "second-tier favorite" -- that wouldn't necessitate a blog name change.  I assume that's what John means when he talks about "dropping the 'ND fan blog' act."  But the title of my blog, "Irish Trojan," doesn't refer primarily to sports fandom.  If it did, it might say "Irish Trojan Zag Husky Vol Red Sock" or some such.  :)  Yes, "Irish Trojan" has been a convenient shorthand for my football loyalties, but it fundamentally means is that I'm Irish because I went to Notre Dame for law school (and because of my ethnic heritage -- sort of a double entendre there), and I'm a Trojan because I went to USC for undergrad (clearly no double entendre there, ahem).  Those schools are my alma maters, and as such, I will always be an "Irish Trojan," regardless of sports loyalties.  I might change the blog's name someday, but if I do, it won't be a change that was necessitated by football.

So.  I'm not sure if that explanation will satisfy my critics, but like it or not, that's the reality.  I have no reason to lie about this.  I'm not "pretending" to be anything.  I'm not putting on an "act."  I continue to root for the Trojans first and the Irish second.  But don't expect me to treat either like sacred cows.  If they deserve to mocked -- or if the mockery, deserved or not, tickles my funny bone -- I'll mock them.  To wit:  Pete Carroll is a poodle.  Charlie Weis is fat.  Reggie Bush is a cheater.  O.J. Simpson is a murderer and an armed robber.  And Notre Dame totally, totally sucks right now.

P.S. If anybody responds to this post by saying "you doth protest too much" or something along those lines, I think I might shoot myself.  Respond to the substance of my post, please, or don't respond at all.  The reason I'm protesting so much is because a bunch of people have commented on this issue, and I think it deserves a thorough answer.  So I've given it one.  That's it.  Nothing else can be read into the length of the post (well, except that I'm an excessively verbose writer, I suppose).

Comments

[John]

Helluva post. I'm pretty convinced about the mocking thing, not surprised about the fandom/proximity thing, and you're right in your observation about the lack of serious commentary: that was what made your comments seem more nasty than before.

Even though Irish Trojan is about your alma maters (which I knew, of course), I still think you count as an Irish fan blogger to nearly any observer. You blog about Notre Dame sports (whatever your take that week), your (old) blog had the leprechaun on its banner (I think, since I can't access it right now). You list a couple of other fan blogs in your sidebar, including BGS, which is quite well known. You do look just like an Irish sports fan blog, irrespective of the name, and that's what I was really getting at. Just a thought.

Thanks for noticing that I was here in good faith and that assbags are a minority of ND fans, even internet-trolling, blog-reading, and yes, NDNation-posting ND fans.

Final thought: when ND does play USC, if ND wins, what is your reaction? 100% negative? How about if ND gets rocked 100-14: 100% positive? If so, you're still an unholy apostate; I just can't wrap my mind around despising the Irish mediocrity 364 days and really, really delighting in it for one. Seems impossible. Something like an 80-20 split I can grasp. Of course, I still don't really care how you answer, but I'm interested to know.

[lex icon]

Dude, OJ is not a mass murderer. He is merely a double murderer. You make it sound like he's Tim McVeigh but he's only as bad as two Lee Harvey Oswalds.

[Andrew]

Has anyone seen the new NDSPN.com website? Freakin' hilarious!

[Brendan Loy]

Did I say mass murderer? Oops, I meant double murderer. Don't know where that came from. Will fix.

John, if ND ever beats 'SC, I'll get back to you. :) It hasn't happened since I became an Irish Trojan. But I'd say 80-20 is probably about right... or 90-10... something. When USC beat ND in the famous Bush Push game, I was ecstatic about the Trojans' win (and extremely relieved that I wouldn't have to deal with my law-school friends giving me sh*t for 13 straight months until the next game), but I was also proud of the Irish for putting up such a good fight. If the Irish had won, I would have been devastated... and at the same time, again, proud of Notre Dame for pulling such a great upset. It's complicated. I was very excited when they came out in the green jerseys, even though I knew I was going to be rooting against them with every fibre of my being. Yeah... it's complicated.

[The Backer]

Bren,

I blogged three years ago that ND Nation "Know it alls" would see this day come, and they had better hope that it doesn't last long.

Your readers know your true allegiance, but I know Notre Dame is special in your heart, and you would rather see them winning than not scoring a F***ing Touchdown (sorry, still reeling from the start of this season).

These current results can be blamed on the Willigham recruiting classes ... well, somewhat. I myself won't consider Weis a success until we start beating top 10 teams, and its hard to see that happening anytime soon.

The best outsome to the season is a loud, very obvious "wake up" call ... not only for Weis, but ND grads/fans who live, breathe and eat Irish football. During my years in South Bend (1999 - 2003) I never witnessed this poor a showing. Sure they can improve, and I look forward to seeing that. I'm just frustrated how most Irish fans are trying to spin this.

It is what it is; a shit sandwich. So ND Nation, take a big bite ... we deserve it.

~ The Backer

[Becky]

Brendan, I think you have low standards for fandom and that said low standards cheapen the thrill of victory for you when your teams finally do succeed. There's a glory in watching a team struggle in the trenches for years. There's a bond among fans that forms when said team finally climbs out of the shits of the league and becomes excellent. And there's a pride in knowing that you watched it all happen, that you were in the stands when they sucked and when they were awesome. It takes years to develop a true loyalty to a team and there's some respect and reverence owed to the old-time fans who were watching the team play when you were a twinkle in your daddy's eye.

When you portray yourself as a fan, you open yourself up for criticism of the depth of your fan-ness. You encourage debate and discussion about what it means to be a fan and what exactly constitutes a good fan versus a bandwagon fan versus a fair weather fan. You open the door for people to call you a crappy fan and I think your umbrage when they do exactly that is dumb. To people who have been fans for 20 years, your claim to fandom probably seems pathetic and flimsy. They've seen fly-by-night fans before.

Do I think that you deserve the scorn and derision you get from some of the more vitriolic ND fans out there? No. I think that's juvenile and stupid. Do I think that your claim of fan status might piss some people off and justafiably so? Yeah. Will your glib posts about ND's undeniable suckitude piss off ND fans who already loathe you and alienate some who don't? Probably. Should you stop posting them? Hell no. 'SC fans love them. ;)

I think your capacity to adopt new teams and root for them is endearing. But I could see how it might rub some people the wrong way, especially when you insist on making it a talking point constantly. You're a little self-obsessed with this, you know. Aw, but I think that's kind of adorable too.

[Brendan Loy]

There's a glory in watching a team struggle in the trenches for years. There's a bond among fans that forms when said team finally climbs out of the shits of the league and becomes excellent. And there's a pride in knowing that you watched it all happen, that you were in the stands when they sucked and when they were awesome.

Ahem, which one of us was it that routinely went to 'SC games during the Hackett years?

That's what I thought.

[John]

Becky: interesting. I'll admit that I don't know Brendan personally at all, and his blog has never pointed out his team-adopting so poignantly as you have. Do you know Brendan personally or something? You're right that it does leave the door open for people like me. It's regrettable if it leaves the door open for some people's vitriol, but some people say some ugly things at some moments in some online arenas (ahem). Never justified.

Brendan: I don't think I'll ever quite understand the intricacies of the relationship between your fandoms. I know that's a feasible construction, but I know I couldn't sustain it at all. I'm still glad to have you as an Irish fan on your 100% days, and really, good luck to both of your teams, except USC.

: )

You guys are both alright in my book. Good luck with the baby and Tennessee and all that jazz.

[Wobbly H]

John,
Becky is Brenners' baby mama. Check out the side of the blog.

[uscroger]

The thing I don't understand is why Fox News hasn't picked up on the ND news, yet. Whatever happened to fair and balanced?

[Sandy Underpants]

Lee Harvey Oswald never killed anybody, he was a patsy. OJ is more like two Scott Petersons.

[uscroger]

"Trojans' win (and extremely relieved that I wouldn't have to deal with my law-school friends giving me sh*t for 13 straight months until the next game), but I was also proud of the Irish for putting up such a good fight."

You know, Brendan, it is interesting that you say that. First, I don't think Weis is equipped to lead a college level football squad. I don't think he has the personality and a year or so ago I wrote about how sorry I felt for Quinn just the same way I feel sorry for ND quarterback. These kids are talented but the leadership is letting them down.

Second, ND needs a boost and playing against top teams might just be the impetus they need. Clausen should have enlisted at SC. Why are these top players so afraid of competition and then they sign up at schools where their talents get diluted?

Really, I don't think going back to camp is going to help and morale will continue to decline at ND. It is time for a new head coach and everyone, I think IMHO.

good luck to both of your teams, except USC

LOL!

[BK]

Ahem, which one of us was it that routinely went to 'SC games during the Hackett years? That's what I thought.

Becky is a "pom-pom on the mailbox" SC fan! LOL! :)

Second, ND needs a boost and playing against top teams might just be the impetus they need. Clausen should have enlisted at SC. Why are these top players so afraid of competition and then they sign up at schools where their talents get diluted?

Roger, are you talking about competition against opposing teams or competition amongst players within the team? Either way I think you may be a bit misinformed. ND's schedule is consistently ranked among the most difficult in the country (google "strength of schedule").

As for competition within the team, no school can boast the talent SC has on the roster, but ND doesn't exactly have crappy recruits, either. For instance, Weis has had #5, #5, and #1 (projected) ranked recruiting classes since arriving at ND. Also, Clausen knew he was coming to ND where Demetrius Jones was, knowing he'd have to compete to play, and where Charlie said he'd recruit a QB each year (Dane Crist coming in next year). There is no shortage of young QB talent at ND.

Also, who says JC's talent will be "diluted" at ND? Love him or hate him, you can't deny the success of Weis's last two QBs, Tom Brady and Brady Quinn. I think you're view that JC's skills are being diluted is terribly short-sighted (JC has started two games out of a potential 48 or so!) and ignores the other possibilities such as the talent currently surrounding JC, his elbow surgery resulting in lack of practice, and the fact that he's a freshman adjusting to the college game.

If I misstated your view or missed the point I invite you to clarify.

[John]

...yeah, I knew that. "You guys are both alright in my book. Good luck with the baby and Tennessee and all that jazz." Poor attempt at humor, I suppose.

[Brendan Loy]

Becky is a "pom-pom on the mailbox" SC fan! LOL! :)

Heh. Not really -- it's more like, Becky wasn't really a football fan, period, until I showed her the light. She grew up a hockey fan more than a football fan. So she didn't follow 'SC football as much as I did while we were there, just because she wasn't as much into football generally. She started to become more interested in the sport generally at around the same time that USC started to get good, but that's at least 51% coincidence. :)

[Becky]

Brendan,

Oh, you smell like poo. I think I made to like 2 or 3 games my freshman year and all of the games my sophomore year...although the fact that I was working for the special events office might have had quite a bit to do with my sophomore year. And, er, the fact that the hotties in the apartment next door always went topless and always said hi didn't hurt either. :)

Junior and senior year there were mitigating circumstances, as you well know.

Harumph. But I do recall getting suckered into putting pompoms on the seats with the Trojan Pride people in exchange for having the opportunity to sit in the very front row for a game, which was pretty kick ass.

Although admittedly, you might have a small, fleeting point.

[Brendan Loy]

You never went to a UCLA game, though. Not even our freshman year, when we won at home to end the 8-year losing streak. I went to three, and it kills me I missed the other one (sophomore year), which was at the Rose Bowl and was the most dramatic (indeed, the only dramatic) game between the Trojans and Bruins while we were there; USC beat UCLA on a last-second field goal. I didn't go because I didn't have anyone to go with... a bunch of my friends either weren't going, or had already gotten tickets by the time I realized it was time to get 'em, and you didn't want to go. Not that I'm still bitter or anything. :) You weren't required to go with special events, since it was an away game, and admittedly, you probably had other s**t to do, given that you were involved in like 800 student activities and stuff that year. And like I said before: you weren't really a football fan yet.

But anyway, I'm not saying I think you're a bandwagon fan, cuz I don't -- I'm just saying you don't get to hold the "going to the games when the team sucks" card over my head, cuz I have significantly more street cred in that department than you do. :)

[Brendan Loy]

P.S. However, there are plenty of other people who have more street cred in that department than I do... and thus I am forced to acknowledge that you, too, might have a small, fleeting point. :)

[Brendan Loy]

P.P.S. To respond to the substance of your comment: I think the key is that, when I start rooting for a team "late in the game," so to speak -- when I haven't suffered with their fans through the lean years, but I then latch onto a team once it becomes a "good story," like Rutgers for instance -- I don't pretend that I'm some sort of long-time die-hard. I don't put on airs in that way. I fully admit that, hey, I'm a johnny-come-lately to this particular bandwagon... but you know what, now that I'm here, I'm here to stay.

I think that's good enough to qualify as at least minimally respectable fandom. You don't; you think my standards for fandom are too low. However, I think I'm at least as good as, oh, maybe 80% of all people who follow sports. The best illustrative example of this is George Mason. When they went to the Final Four, suddenly the entire D.C. area became a hotbed of George Mason fandom. But 99% of those people had never paid any attention to the team before. Does that mean there's something wrong with them suddenly being enthusiastic about the team? Should the "true" George Mason fans, the ones who filled their gym 200 strong or whatever during the regular season, scorn and reject the new throngs of fans that have suddenly joined their cause? Or should they welcome them with open arms?

I think they should welcome the new fans with open arms, as long as: 1) the new fans honest about their status as johnny-come-latelies, and 2) they don't jump right off the bandwagon again when the team gets bad. An awful lot of people fail to follow rule #2, and they aren't terribly respectable as "fans," IMHO. A smaller but even more obnoxious group fail to follow rule #1; they pretend like they were there all along, and try to hold themselves up as equals to the old-timers and die-hards, rather than acknowledging that the fans who've been with the team ALL ALONG are sort of at a whole different level of fandom.

If my standards for fandom are too low, as you say, then everybody who has started rooting for George Mason, Boise State, Rutgers, Appalachian State, etc. etc. in the last few years, is a non-fan and a bandwagoner douchebag. I don't buy that argument, because again, I think that describes the substantial majority of people who follow sports. People love to get caught up in the excitement of a team that's a "great story," and there's nothing wrong with that. As long as they aren't obnoxious or dishonest about it, and as long as they're willing to stay on the bandwagon once they're there, they shouldn't be condemned for the fact that they haven't been fans since the womb.

[David K.]

"Love him or hate him, you can't deny the success of Weis's last two QBs, Tom Brady and Brady Quinn."

Brady was in the pro's thats a different beast all together, and Quinn? Considering that Quinn actually regressed his senior year and slipped far enough down the draft it was a national news story? As for how he does in the pros, he has yet to actually play so thats a big giant question mark right there. No like him or hate him (or think him overrated) there's not much you can draw from Weis QB coaching yet ESPECIALLY at the college level.

[Wobbly H]

This "Quinn regressed" argument is tired, Davie.

[fezafou]

Im not gonna argue your merits for being a Notre Dame fan Brendan, you went to Law School there for petes sake. I think that gives you enough credit to support them, and be harsh on them when their playing like they have this season. The point i want to make is about the contract extension Weis recieved. The reason ND gave him this was becuase there was such a demand for him to be a head coach in the NFL. Which was not the case for the past two head coaches. The season he recieved the extension, the Giants were interested in him, also you think when the Jets were looking for a new coach he wasnt being considered, with the Jets front office's(and the rest of the AFC East's) love for the Parcells/Belichick lineage of coaches. Also the season before he was hired an ND he was interviewed by the Buffalo Bills, and two other NFL teams(this is a fact documented in his book), but they hired other options because of the Patriots Super Bowl run. Notre Dame had to give him the incentive, to not take these other positions. One might say "why would ND give him an extension after going 3-2" well simply becuase of the demand for his services, and also if you were there at the ND-USC game (i know me and Brendan were there) you would have witnessed the most electric ND stadium has ever been, it was like this in part because of Weis. ND wanted him to be the coach of now and in the future and most likely becuase of that extension he's is not going anywhere.

[BK]

David, take a deep breath and step away from your keyboard. Look at the context of the above statements. Try to control your urge to raise hell whenever Weis is brought up. As so many brave others have done before me, let's take this one piece at a time.

Brady was in the pro's thats a different beast all together

No, my initial comment was aimed at Roger's comment that JC's talent would be diluted under Weis. We're all talking football here. Under Weis (as QUARTERBACKS COACH and later offensive coordinator, Brady got better, and some people might say, came out of nowhere to be a star. Is Brady's success 100% because of Weis? Of course not. But success of Weis's students certainly is one indicator of his ability. Or would you not credit your parents, teachers, and coaches with your abilities?

Considering that Quinn actually regressed his senior year and slipped far enough down the draft it was a national news story?

Puh-lease. Did you watch every snap of Brady's junior and senior years? Do you honestly believe that he regressed his senior year, and that any discrepancies in his performance can be attributed to Quinn and/or Weis and not any other factor(s)? Oh, and as for him slipping in the draft, it was a big story because he widely held to be one of the best players in college football and was "NFL-ready". If he had really "regressed" his senior year, don't you think the experts would have realized this and not projected him to be a top-5 pick?

As for how he does in the pros, he has yet to actually play so thats a big giant question mark right there.

Again, I'll direct you to my initial comment. My post was directed at Roger's implication that it was a mistake for Clausen to attend ND, and that he would be diluted as a player by doing so. My response to Roger's claim was that Weis has a good track record with QBs and understands the game, not that he produces NFL talent. Both Tom Brady and Brady Quinn praise Weis with helping them grow into the QBs that they are, something that a young player will clearly recognize and be draw to as a recruit.

like him or hate him (or think him overrated) there's not much you can draw from Weis QB coaching yet ESPECIALLY at the college level.

I (sort of) agree with you here. Weis has only been around for a couple years, and time will tell if he really is the coach that everyone makes him out to be. What is clear is that two successful QBs---one at the NFL level and one at the college level---credit the man with helping them achieve the success they enjoy. This runs against Roger's point that it was a mistake for Clausen to go to ND, the only thing I was trying to address in my initial comment.

If you are going to criticize Weis or my comments, at least do so when they are presented in the proper context.

[David K.]

"This "Quinn regressed" argument is tired, Davie."

His completion percentage got worse, his YPA got worse, his longest pass was worse, his interceptions went up, his sacks went up, his running went down. How is that not regressing? Even if its close enough in your mind that he played about the same, um, under the genius of Weis shouldn't he have dramaticallly IMPROVED between his junior and senior years? He improved dramatically from Fresh to Soph and Soph to Junior.

[kcatnd]

Receivers dropped more passes, didn't make as many plays, offensive line play DID regress, resulting in more interceptions from hurried throws, increasing sacks, which decreased rushing...

Quinn can't be responsible for all of those stats. He held the team together and helped them overachieve, in my opinion. ND would have lost to UCLA if not for his pump-fake. There are elements outside the stat line, such as leadership, that form a more complete picture of Quinn. Don't forget about that.

And yes, we know you don't think Weis is a genius.

[Joe Loy]

Dude, OJ is not an armed robber. He is merely a victim of a Set-up but that guy whatsisname, Phil Spector I think it is, yeah That's it, or Arlen Specter maybe, some kinda mutt like that, wuttsa madduh fuh yoo, don'tchya follow da News?

;}